关于TOASTER的结构疑问，

fytang

广东安规检测
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这是最新的TUV回复，
Reinforced insulation was required when switch was at OFF position.
Although the test finger is not applicable for visibly glowing heating element according to clause 8.1.3, but when the switch was placed at OFF position, the end user is possible to touch bare heating element due to heating element not glowing and heating, so the bare heating element should be considered as accessible parts and must satisfy with requirements of reinforced insulation of clause 29. The test finger is applicable in clause 29.
0 H! m0 t1 b* l# S" f7 l4 d" Y我的理由是，
. F$ x, |. m$ PBut I think whether this sample can pass Cl. 29 or not depends on how you define the creepage requirement.  If we judge it as functional insulation then it will pass Cl. 29   .   and 8.1.3 give us a reference regarding how to judge those heating element whether accessible or not .  hence according to 8.1.3 , we should judge this part is inaccessible not matter it’s in the on-mode or off mode .

leoliang

引用第10楼fytang于2010-09-02 15:48发表的  :
这是最新的TUV回复，
* T1 p  a1 B: G' P/ Q" {0 V5 o Reinforced insulation was required when switch was at OFF position.
Although the test finger is not applicable for visibly glowing heating element according to clause 8.1.3, but when the switch was placed at OFF position, the end user is possible to touch bare heating element due to heating element not glowing and heating, so the bare heating element should be considered as accessible parts and must satisfy with requirements of reinforced insulation of clause 29. The test finger is applicable in clause 29.
! Y! x2 J' z& j$ U我的理由是，
But I think whether this sample can pass Cl. 29 or not depends on how you define the creepage requirement.  If we judge it as functional insulation then it will pass Cl. 29   .   and 8.1.3 give us a reference regarding how to judge those heating element whether accessible or not .  hence according to 8.1.3 , we should judge this part is inaccessible not matter it’s in the on-mode or off mode .

我完全支持TUV 的观点, 我的理解也跟他一样,这也是我前面说他有道理的原因.

nellhu

引用第10楼fytang于2010-09-02 15:48发表的  :
, j" C9 j- D+ C1 M, J. Z+ g% Z这是最新的TUV回复，
Reinforced insulation was required when switch was at OFF position.
- f$ W% z, K2 ]7 \Although the test finger is not applicable for visibly glowing heating element according to clause 8.1.3, but when the switch was placed at OFF position, the end user is possible to touch bare heating element due to heating element not glowing and heating, so the bare heating element should be considered as accessible parts and must satisfy with requirements of reinforced insulation of clause 29. The test finger is applicable in clause 29.
: H# [) d4 Q3 {我的理由是，
But I think whether this sample can pass Cl. 29 or not depends on how you define the creepage requirement.  If we judge it as functional insulation then it will pass Cl. 29   .   and 8.1.3 give us a reference regarding how to judge those heating element whether accessible or not .  hence according to 8.1.3 , we should judge this part is inaccessible not matter it’s in the on-mode or off mode .

1 A) O! c  ^9 o1。The heating element is not live parts at off mode, even the user may touch the heating wire, it is no danagerous
) @- a8 m% }7 S7 \- G/ P: \2 A
6 s9 V1 X8 g, f4 {2. . second, from the std, it never require to use finger to replace test probe 41 at any condition.
, u0 A# u4 r. ?! d( @9 I! z0 Q9 E
) L6 e! |5 j3 |! U4 s( G6 v  E3. another possible solution to you: Find a report which is issued by them, I believe they will hit their face themselves as far as I know, al switch in Toaster like yours.

GloriaFeng

Agree with the upstair. Whether the switch is "ON"or"OFF", the heating element need not test by
9 m# s; a0 ~% P6 `# Xprobe 41.

上水白龙

我也碰到过类似同一间机构的不同分支（如GZ的SZ）的判定标准不一致，最后都是按后面这一家要求整改的。因为标准其实很笼统，不同的工程师可以有不同的解读。但对于这些安全性问题，到了客人那里往往都是认同认证机构的意见的。很无奈！

hmangel26

这是最新的TUV回复，
0 c5 l  A6 e- s( A3 _5 uReinforced insulation was required when switch was at OFF position.
Although the test finger is not applicable for visibly glowing heating element according to clause 8.1.3, but when the switch was placed at OFF position, the end user is possible to touch bare heating element due to heating element not glowing and heating, so the bare heating element should be considered as accessible parts and must satisfy with requirements of reinforced insulation of clause 29. The test finger is applicable in clause 29.
7 o8 l8 U2 X3 f8 F% ~2 |- b3 J/ x
) V8 |# K5 b4 X& _; v# Y$ h首先，按照功能绝缘的定义335－1中3.3.5 insulation between conductive parts of different potential which is necessary only for the proper functioning of the appliance，判断，两触点之间并没有电势差，所以这不是功能绝缘，按加强绝缘判是没有疑问的。
' G+ a. i* n% u  g3 t2 H其次，发热丝如果不是visibly glowing heating element 而且可以碰到的话，那么需要用测试指来考核它的防触电，这样的话，防触电是肯定过不了的，所以只有两个结果：
- q. O3 i+ Y5 ^; K5 Q- h. [7 v1: 防触电过不了
# I" e) Q+ |' u" d- \4 t- o6 w& t5 V2: 工程师误判（原因：完全可以把触点看作是导通的，但是正常和非正常测试都已经pass了，也就证明了该产品符合温升及防触电等要求，而且这个只是电子控制的开关，应该还有机械开关控制着主电路吧）

ahead

其实换个角度想下, 如果不是这种开关, 换成普通的有认证的开关呢?是不是也不可以用?这似乎没有道理吧, 但是有认证的开关也就满足61058的标准, 并不满足加强绝缘的说法啊
* g2 D) f) I5 ^当然了 这个是GS, 发证机构是可以有解释的, 毕竟GS的判定不单单是标准 还有那个GPSG也是要考虑的

nellhu

Pls check definition of "visibly glowing heating element ", we cna not define it as "visibly glowing heating element"when it is operated, but define it is not when it is off.
: ~4 @' {4 }" Y/ E+ [4 e
# i4 Q# Z* X1 H/ }: ivisibly glowing heating element
4 \+ |6 G2 {0 {- j$ Y+ iheating element that is partly or completely visible from the outside of the appliance and has
a temperature of at least 650 °C when the appliance has been operated under normal
operation at rated power input until steady conditions have been established.

fytang

我的回复，
  f$ K( O/ O# [( BHowever , I checked clause 29 ,in clause 29  no explanation is given regarding how to define accessible part .  there is no sentence to say use test finger to replace test probe 41 to define the accessible part . test finger in clause 29 only used for reduce the clearance on accessible part.
Can we think this through on this way .  we premise reinforced insulation on here have to be followed .    if I only use some standard switch certified by EN61058 instead of current mechanical switch plus PCB To operate this machine , that means it violate standard .   I　don’t think so .  
TUV 的回复
2 s) ]4 U2 J2 J& q6 p  I think our bifurcation is whether the heating element is live part or not.
According to Cl.3.6.3:
accessible part
part or surface that can be touched by means of test probe B of IEC 61032, and if the part or
surface is metal, any conductive part connected to it
accessible part should be defined by “test probe B”. Therefore, the heating element is accessible part

nellhu

我始终觉得TUV在不停的偷换概念。
1。 测试手指：probe B or Probe 41:
9 e: b6 K: E# `2 I
according to -2-9:
# i& S/ P9 y! P( H! o8 A8.1.1 Addition:
For toasters having a crumb tray, the test finger is not applied through the crumb-tray
opening to live parts that are disconnected by the operation of a double pole switch.
However, it shall not be possible to touch these parts with test probe 41 of IEC 61032.

so we shall use test probe 41 to see if it can touch live parts(i.e. heating element)

4 B( @/ \  X9 d2. live parts/accessible parts:
! {; T  O( `% h" G0 a: P1 q; k
% o; a8 V# S1 K* zHeating element is live part  parts, and it can not be considered as "accessible parts" as we don't use probe B in 8.1.3. i.e. the definition of "accessible part" is no applicable for Toaster.
- \$ `. q9 O& H7 i6 H/ J; |5 o1 t9 b
' D( e/ A2 \9 z2 o" X) Y) o3. visibly glowing heating element:
6 e  _9 r" C/ ]; O' y
as I said before, heating element is "visibly glowing heating element"  whether the toaster is on or off. and it never require to use test probe B to verify.
3 s. B) K& b: m6 ?3 F9 n
4 h* d8 C+ H& `
+ A: `4 l9 {6 V3 E' }! UI think the key point is: TUV use test probe B, however it is not allowed for Toaster in this construction.